The Flood Conundrum

• Let's Start With Some Facts
• What Is The Flood Conundrum
• Duplicate Names Problem
• The Mt Ararat Conundrum
• Black Sea Deluge Hypothesis
• The Zanclean Flood Event
• Africa Is Moving North
• The Meaning Of Flood
• The Torah Timeline
• Shuruppak
• Interglacial Ice Age Flood
• The Moon Flood
• The Nile Canyon
• The Noah Paradox
• The TimeLine Paradox

Let's Start With Some Facts

The Sumerian counterpart to Noah is Ziusudra (better known as Utnapishtim) in the later Akkadian Epic Of Gilgamesh.

Utnapishtim was instructed by "Enki" to build an Ark and save his family and livestock plus other animals.

Now it gets wierd.

According to wikipedia, There are hundreds of distinct flood myths.

Anthropologists and historians estimate there are at least 200 to 500 individual stories passed down by diverse cultures globally, with some regional surveys, like in Southeast Asia, cataloging over 300 unique versions within a single area.

Many of these "unique versions" can easily be attributed to time and distance between groups of people.

Just look at how diverse the English language is from country to country and even more diverse is the slang.

If it were not for TV and movies, most of us would hardly understand other English speakers from another country. "eg"

My Point?

My point is that some - if not many - of these "stories" predate "The Bible". For example:

It is estimated that the Sumerian flood myth predates the Book of Genesis version by over a thousand years.

With the oldest written Sumerian account (Eridu Genesis) dating to roughly 1600 BCE, whereas the Book of Genesis flood story purportedly happened much later, typically dated between the 6th and 5th centuries BCE. ("Enuma Elish" )

My point is that the "linear" timeline that we so fervently cling to, may often be misconstrued due to idealogical translations and it may even be just wrong.

Or perhaps, just perhaps, there is something more esoteric happening that we simply cannot see at the moment?

Perhaps.

Irving Finkel and the original "Noah's Ark".

Further reading.

• "Handbook of World Flood Myths"
• "Flood Myths From Mesopotamia"

What Is The Flood Conundrum

Consider This ↟↟

Let's consider this shall we?

Did you know that there are "marine" fossils over 7,000 feet (2,100+ Meters) up the Swiss Alps? +

Subduction / Obduction

The geological opposite of subduction is obduction

The Swiss Alps are created by Africa Subducting and then Obducting on the Northern side of the Mediterranean Sea.

The Swiss Alps were created through a massive collision of tectonic plates - the Eurasian Plate and the African (or Adriatic) Plate - which crumped and folded the Earth's crust.

Turkey

Sitting on the Anatolian Plate - most of the mountains in Turkey were formed by a combination of tectonic plate collisions and volcanic activity.

Again we can blame Africa.

Turkey's mountains were primarily created by the violent collision of the African, Arabian, and Eurasian tectonic plates.

As these massive plates pushed together over millions of years, the crust buckled and folded upward, creating a highly active geological landscape through several processes.

Please Note the words, "Millions Of Years".

Consider This ↟↟

Have you considered this?

Perhaps the "Mt Ararat" we know of today is not the same Mt Ararat Noah purportedly landed on?

Or have you even considered that the actual "flood" took place millions of years or even 10's or 100's of millions of years earlier?

Think about that for a moment.

And then there is the possibility that the "current" mountain "we" call Ararat may not even be the same mountain?

Also factor into your equation that it is now being reported that "Jupiter" was ± twice its current size but has (apparently) shrunk due to solar winds.

If you apply the same principle to Our planet and the "potential" displacement of solar wind evaporated water, we begin to see that the "earth" may have been covered by a vastly greater volume of water in the past.

Of course this completely destroys the 6,000 year "lie" we are constantly being fed by pseudo-archaeologists regarding the timeline of life on this planet.

Because IF (in 6,000 years) we have lost an estimated 70% - 80% of the water which "purportedly" once covered this planet (based on a recent flood theory), then where did it go and how long will it take for the rest of the water to be carried away by Solar Winds?

See the "7 Days Conundrum" page.

Lemuria

Lemuria was supposed to exist between the Pacific ocean and the Indian ocean.

Also consider that the supposed land mass erroneously called "Lemuria" was between the Indian and Pacific oceans so this could only be (modern day names of) Australia OR India.

Consider that IF this (Lemuria) was India, then the "observation" of this land mass would have had to have been "at least" 60 million - 100 million years ago or even longer. This is because India crashed into "Asia" around 55-60 million years ago (depending upon who you read).

Given the recurring Ice ages and Inter-glacials where the water repeatedly recedes and then rises over 100 meters (300 ft+) or more, it is easy to see how this "story" may have been perpetuated throughout living memory.

Plus you need to also consider that modern humans have only "supposedly" been around for 6,000 years, then 11,000 years and now we find "almost" modern anatomical humans in the "Jebel Irhoud" site, Morocco from over 300,000 years ago. +

How about a ""House" Built "1,750,000 Years Ago?"

Trivia Du Jour

• Jebel means mountain or large hill. So when people say "Jebel" mountain, they are literally saying Mountain mountain.
• Sahara means desert. So if you say "Sahara desert", it sounds like you are saying the "Desert desert".
• Kind of like saying "ATM Machine".

Duplicate Names Problem

There are many instances where towns or cities or other objects have the same name as another similar town or city or object nearby.

The Badlands Guardian (Alberta, Canada)

The Badlands Guardian is a mountain that definitively (definatively) L@@KS like a Native American "Medicine Man head" pointing towards the town 30 miles / 48 kms NorthWest called Medicine Hat. +

• In Japan there are multiple Tengu Yama (Tengu mountains) and in Hokkaido there are 2 (one near Otaru and another north of Tomakomai) plus more on Honshu.
• Then you have modern Dwarka and ancient Dwarka (now underwater).
• For those who remember the "My Lai (pronounced me lie) massacre" 1968 in Vietnam where the officer in charge was given the wrong coordinates and went to the wrong village which was close to the second VC held village with the same name.
• Melbourne, Australia and Melbourne, Florida.
• Dunedin, Scotland and Dunedin, New Zealand.
• Perth, Scotland and Perth, Australia.
• Paris, France and Paris, Texas.
• Sydney, Australia and Sydney, Canada.
• Rome, Italy and Rome, New York.
• Moscow, Russia and Moscow, Kansas.
• and the list goes on and on...

While the above examples are often thousands of miles (Kms) apart, in some countries like "Ireland" , Viet Nam and others, some "towns" with the same names are in close proximity to each other.

Viet nam must take the Nobel Prize for duplicate name with Ho Chi Minh city (circa 2024) having over "300" (2024) streets with the same name. This has to be the taxi driver version of hell. The city council is currently working to rename all of these streets.

This does not include duplicate place names.

I am sure that many people have their own duplicate cities names they can think of.

My point here is that the mountain we call Mt Ararat may be like Dwarka ("Dvaraka") where the old mountain was lower and a new one was named because no one remembered where the exact Mt Ararat was.

The Mt Ararat Conundrum

Mt Ararat is 5,165 meters high (16,854 feet) and the "supposed" resting place of the "Noah's Ark" is supposedly at 4,200 meters (13,800 ft) - or approx 2.6 miles up.

Consider how much water would need to have been "created" for this 4,200 meters (13,800 ft) - or 2.6 miles - event to have occurred just a few thousand years ago?

Then consider how much of that water would still be "visible" if it only happened 5,000 - 6,000 years ago?

Also consider the following 3 aspects:

1. "IF" there was indeed 4,200 meters of water covering this planet around 5,000+ years ago
2. Consider the evaporation rate required for the Earth to be at its current ocean levels
3. Now consider that at this rate of evaporation, over 90% of our oceans will be completely dry in another 5,000 - 10,000 years
4. Is this realistic?

However, if this happened many many millions of years ago, (in theory) it may be possible for large volumes of water to have evaporated, just like the downsizing of "Jupiter" due to solar winds (or other factors).

Also factor into your evaporation equation the massive gravity of Jupiter compared to our small planet.

The Black Sea Deluge Hypothesis

The Black Sea Deluge "Hypothesis" says that when the "Straights of Gibraltar" were blocked by "sediment", the Mediterranean Sea was much lower by up to 3,000 meters (yards). (depending on which scientific study you read)

In fact, I have read reports claiming that the Mediterranean Sea was only 30-60 meters lower than today but this seems hardly truthful considering that much of the area of the Adriatic Sea was exposed land, yet it has an average depth is 259.5 meters (851 ft), and its maximum depth is 1,233 meters (4,045 ft); however, the North Adriatic basin rarely exceeds a depth of 100 meters (330 ft).

"Newer research" put the Mediterranean Sea and lower than 3,000 meters (1,100 yards) and this is quantified by canyons in the basin where rivers like the Nile cascaded down into the depths and carved out these massive canyons. + +

The tallest waterfall on this planet is "Angel Falls" at 979 meters (3,212 ft) located in Venezuela.

Now imagine something 3,000 meters tall.

Because the Mediterranean Sea was volume deficient, this meant that the Bosporus (canal) was high and dry as well so no saline water flowed into the Black Sea.

Compounding this was the Ice Age where the oceans were approx 130 meters (400 feet ±) lower than todays sea levels.

FYI: The Bosporus canal, is a narrow strait in Turkey that connects the waters of the Mediterranean Sea to the Black Sea.

Note:

The following rivers flow into the Mediterranean Sea. The Adige, Ceyhan, Drin-Bojana, Ebro, Neretva, Nile, Po, Rhone, Seyhan, Tiber.

Glacial + Inter-glacial Oscillation

According to the Milankovitch cycles, our planet goes through an ice age approx every 100,000 or so years.

This means that the ocean levels decrease significantly and the Mediterranean Sea "cycle" repeats every inter-glacial.

The "3" "Milankovitch cycles" are generally accepted science these days and worth reading about especially if you believe in global warming.

And then around 12,000 (±) years ago, the ice started melting and the "Straights of Gibraltar" became unblocked as the Atlantic Ocean rushed in, flooding the depleted Mediterranean basin and eventually rising up to the current level which in turn caused more catastrophic ocean water flowing into the Black Sea basin.

One day you are living next to Club Med (pun intended) and the next day it has turned into Lake Tsunami.

In fact, this water rise was so severe, that some villagers left almost everything behind and ran for their lives.

This was proven by underwater expeditions which found "evidence" supporting this claim. Like these Black Sea "underwater" villages.

The Zanclean Flood Event

Also consider the Zanclean flood + "90 seconds". time-lapse.

The "Zanclean flood" is also referred to as the "Messinian" flood theory (5.3 Million Years ago) suggests that flooding contributed to extraordinary archaeological evidence in and around the Mediterranean region - both above and below current sea levels. + +

The Messinian flood theory is different from The "Mycenaean flood" which purportedly destroyed the Mycenaean culture over a thousand years ago.

So...

Is it possible that the biblical "Flood" happened millions of years earlier than we are taught?

And if you include the Vedic "multiverse" theory into your calculations, then this answer gets a lot more complicated.

There have been so many "Flood Events" that over time and mainly due to non existent book keeping, these "stories" have merged to be counted as happening in recent memory.

Oral Tradition ↟↟

Also as a Plan B, a lot of history was kept by "Oral Tradition" (spoken and taught from one generation to the next), however, given the violence in the areas of Europe, the Mediterranean Sea and including the famous "Fertile Crescent", it is highly possible that these "stories" were deleted when whole villages and even towns were erased after being attacked by marauders (like the "Sea Peoples" - for example or even the Barbary pirates "Barbary pirates" , and the Romans Empire stretched from the UK to Persia and they genocided many a village that did not submit to their will + map).

If you think that mass murders did not happen, please consider the "Teutoburg Forest" massacre of around 15,000 (mainly) Roman soldiers (3 Legions), plus around 5,000 auxiliary Germanic troops plus their rear echelon (cooks, servants wives, slaves etc) and then consider what it would have taken for so many local tribesmen to unite against Rome.

Consider the barbarity that occurred before the Teutoburg Forest incident which forced these Germanic people to stop fighting amongst themselves. +

Roman empire 117 AD.

Also consider that most people these days drive to the local shop to buy milk which in 117 AD, most people would walk and the regular Roman soldiers literally walked from Rome to the external "territories".

Finally, did you know that Romania is actually called "Dacia" but the entire country was renamed by the Romans (just like ancient Israel) even though only a very small number of people supported Rome at that time.

Whatever the case may be, one thing is clear, there have been many "floods" in our history which "may" have been interpreted incorrectly by those who came later due to a lack of sustained written records.

Colonization ↟↟

Colonization either by country or religion still exists today and is another major cause of lost information of history.

The Spanish destroyed most of the Mayan "Codices", the Christians destroyed tribal beliefs across most of the world instigated by multiple countries, the British colonized a big chunk of the old world and the Muslims have become the greatest destroyer of original cultures in modern history.

The whole of South America now only has 2 primary (Lingua Franca) languages.

On top of this you have the major wars to contend with and cultural genocides and cultural revolutionists like hitler, mao, stalin, castro, pol pot and many others.

ALL of these events contribute to large chunks of lost history and important legends.

Africa Is Moving North

The "African plate" is moving North at an estimated speed of 2.15 cm (0.85 '') per year. It has been moving over the past 100 million years or so in a general northeast direction.

This is a theoretical travel distance of approximately 1,335 miles or approx 2,148 Kms. (over 100 million years)

The African Plate is also known as the Nubian Plate.

Allowing for both soft crust and hard crust upliftment, it is within the scope of reality that the height of Mt Ararat was dramatically lower when Noah was a boy.

You also need to factor in the the word in Hebrew for generation "Dor" may also mean 1 entire cycle of up to 6,000 years or more - as I have explained above and also on the "Cycles" page.

According to scientific evidence, the African plate began colliding with the European plate during the Late Cretaceous period (100 to 66 million years ago ±), with the most significant collision occurring around the Middle Miocene epoch (between 23.03 and 5.333 million years ago ±), marking the start of major mountain building in the region due to the convergent plate boundary.

The "Miocene epoch" is often divided into 3 sections.

1. the Early Miocene Epoch (23 million to 16 million years ago)
2. the Middle Miocene Epoch (16 million to 11.6 million years ago)
3. the Late Miocene Epoch (11.6 million to 5.3 million years ago)

If scientists are right and the main part of the mountain formation was started in the Middle Miocene Epoch, then this would mean that Africa would have had to have been traveling much faster than the current rate because Africa is also responsible for the formation of the Swiss Alps and other mountain ranges. +

What makes this even more interesting is that the African (Nubian) Plate subducted below the Euro Plate and then "somehow" did a U Turn and rose up to form the Alps of Southern Europe.

Now add this to the formula.

(Abridged version) In Exodus Chapter 3 "v13-14", Moses asks "God" "How will they know you sent me" and God replies, "Tell them Ehy'yeh A'sher Ehy'yeh ("אהיה אשר אהיה" ) has sent you".

Because of cultural ignorance, this is sometimes translated as "I was, I am, I will be".

This same principle applies to The Torah, so while we may read it as an historical book, it contains relevant information from the deep past, the current and "prophetically", the potential future. (one such event I discuss is the "Sodom Prophecy" )

Back to Africa

Now consider that if this 2.15 cms a year is a constant over the last 100 million years (this is not reality but I am using this as my example benchmark), then from ± 5.3 million years ago, Africa has travelled north ± approx 114 Kms or 70 miles.

But since the end of the Middle Miocene Epoch, Africa has travelled north approx 249.4 Kms (approx 155 miles). ***

*** The speed of travel would be governed by the density and depth of the impacted land masses with both sides not expected to be of equal density and depth.

So even in the last 5.3 million years, it is quite possible that Mt Ararat has risen many thousands of feet when you consider these parameters.

Millions and Not thousands.

However, even if we factor in 11 million years of northward travel as having the most impact on mountain formation, then it is now easy to see how Mt Ararat could be this high in modern days.

Remember - it is claimed that Africa started colliding with the Eurasian Plate 100 million years ago, so just counting the last 11 million as the most formative years for the mountains in Europe and Turkey would be considered extremely reasonable. (see wikipedia link above)

Back to the Noah story ↟↟

So in theory, this would mean that the Historical story of Noah was much older than we have been led to believe.

Remember that the bible does not specifically state that the event occurred on a specific day or date, merely that it is a chronological timeline of events which we automatically assume to be within the last 6,000 years.

Because that is what we are taught.

The problem is that no one questions the event or the timeline possibly because they are afraid at what the may find out.

The Meaning Of Flood

The word "flood" has multiple meanings.

One of these is a deluge of water and another could be anything which "overloads" a situation. For example, you can flood your carburetor which is different from if you flood your farm by over stocking it with animals which is different from land being flooded by water.

Now consider a "flood of people" as we currently see invading Europe, the USA, Australia, the UK and many other countries (circa 2024).

This human flood is hidden in plain sight, yet most people fail to see it.

Floods may be slow (or fast) and caused by deluges far exceeding the river systems ability - or the dams capability - to cope with as we see every year in "China" every year or on "YouTube".

And then you also have "tsunamis" which can devastate areas in minutes instead of days or weeks, like this warning for preppers and survivalists regarding the "1958 Lituya Bay (Alaska)" megatsunami which reached 1,720 feet (524 meters). +

Or the August 10, 2025 Tracy Arm megatsunami in Southeast Alaska - a massive landslide near South Sawyer Glacier collapsed into Tracy Arm, generating one of the tallest tsunamis ever recorded (1,578 ft - 480m). "(aftermath)"

Hamas (חָמָֽס)

And then there are floods of biblical proportions.

Did you know that "hamas" was mentioned in the Torah just before "The Flood" and now we have "hamas" again in our lifetime just before another major disaster. In fact, it is predicted that Gaza (hamas) will be washed away by a flood (tsunami?).

וַתִּשָּׁחֵ֥ת הָאָ֖רֶץ לִפְנֵ֣י הָֽאֱלֹהִ֑ים וַתִּמָּלֵ֥א הָאָ֖רֶץ (חָמָֽס)

This is history repeating itself.

As Prof Ilya Rips once told me, "Think of it like a form of chaos theory where something which occurred today either has already occurred or will occur again in exactly the same form and sequence".

"Given the expected chaos of the Universe, this repetition should (in theory) not recur".

*** This is not just a purely intellectual exercise.

Also remember that 400 years ago, people who believed that the Earth moved "around" the Sun were burned alive. Case in point "Giordano Bruno" and also "Galileo" was forced to recant his belief of our planet revolving around the sun (Copernican heliocentrism ) or face the same barbaric death by burning.

The Torah Timeline

Why is this important ↟↟

It is important because it shows you that the Torah is not just a static story of history on a flat 1 dimensional timeline. (as we are taught)

If you view the Torah as a document, book or bed time story - then you will be missing the point that the Torah is, in itself multi-dimensional - and you will completely miss the complex multi-dimensional mind of The Creator.

You will also miss the fact that the Torah includes multiple levels of historical events as well as multiple levels of prophetic events based in part on the historical record with 2 quick examples being the "Sodom Prophecy" and the return of hamas

Think of 3 D chess times trillions OF trillions - with each piece being able to replicate and also being able to interact with adjoining pieces, often affecting their outcome as well - and then add multiple physical and spiritual levels as well.

Riddle me this ↟↟

I have often heard people dismiss the "bible" as mythology, but like the city of Troy, it keeps showing us that what we are taught is not often the reality of what happened.

I would also like to point out that the "Only Time" in recorded history that "The Creator" was physically revealed to millions of people for 40 years, was to Benei-Israel.

And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to cause it to lead them on the way and at night in a pillar of fire to give them light, [thus they could - in theory] travel day and night.

וַֽיהֹוָ֡ה הֹלֵךְ֩ לִפְנֵיהֶ֨ם יוֹמָ֜ם בְּעַמּ֤וּד עָנָן֙ לַנְחֹתָ֣ם הַדֶּ֔רֶךְ וְלַ֛יְלָה בְּעַמּ֥וּד אֵ֖שׁ לְהָאִ֣יר לָהֶ֑ם לָלֶ֖כֶת יוֹמָ֥ם וָלָֽיְלָה

Please note the definitive "pillar of cloud" and not just "cloud" which - because of the word "pillar" - shows that this was a deliberate reveal for the 40 years.

Q: Why is it that no other religion can make this claim?

I lightly cover some other "Prophecies" here if you are interested.

There are many other such examples like these which I will eventually add to this website.

Shuruppak

"Shuruppak" was an ancient city in the "Fertile Crescent" now modern day Iraq.

Located at current day "Tell Fara" approx 35 miles (66Kms) south of Nippur, Shuruppak was found buried under 45 feet (15 meters) of top soil.

Shuruppak was mentioned in the "Epic Of Gilgamesh".

The ancient "city" (town) of Shuruppak covered ± 40 hectares (almost 50 acres) and was considered quite a sizeable city for its time. Big enough to have a King.

While some carbon dating placed the timeline at around of 3,000 BCE - it MUST be remembered that archaeological science has - on many occasions - lied to us about carbon dating - MANY TIMES.

There are 2 immediate references to these lies and 1 is the Pyramids (Giza) and the second is Professor Cynthia Irwin-Williams discovery evidence of humans living in (Hueyatlaco) Mexico over 200,000 years ago. This site has now been built over with houses.

Professor Irwin-Williams (1936 - 1990) was so discredited in the scientific community that (a) she never published her final report (b) ended up working as a florist (the last I heard) after being shunned by the extremely sexist main stream archaeology.

The Reason ↟↟

The reason I mention Shuruppak is because of 3 things.

1) The Sumerian Tablets talk about a Great Flood.

2) The King of Shuruppak (King Shuruppak), tells his son to make an ARK to save mankind. Just like the "Ark Before Noah" story.

3) Some people associate this Shuruppak story with the underground cities found in modern day Turkey of which Derinkuyu is just 1 of an estimated "200+" so far discovered with many being linked up via underground tunnels.

The question Du Jour is this. "is Derinkuyu associated with Shuruppak + and + Gobekli Tepe?" because if it was, then the civilization "at that time" muct have been massive in size and scope.

Arabian Gulf

This is another point which never seems to get any attention.

12,000 years ago, the Arabian Gulf had no water and it was all exposed dry land.

Consider that this would have been very well populated given the rivers which flowed throught the Gulf.

The following is speculation but given the level of sophistication of the Sumerians, I postulate that it may have also been possible that they built dams for irrigation purposes and given that the main building material they would have used would have been dirt, if any of these had failed, it would have buried cities down river under tons of mud.

This "may" explain why Shuruppak was under 15 meters (45 feet) of dirt.

If you follow the "scientific story" of our history, you will know that mainly through arrogance and bias, they often get things wrong.

The Lake Homs Dam in Syria was built around 1300 BCE so dam building is older than most people think.

"Earthen" dams are often called "Embankment dams" are are prone to failure.

What Is My Point? ↟↟

My point is that there are "many" such flood stories throughout history and over time, these merge into single digit events as that time blurs and generations of people come and go with fallible memories.

So did the biblical flood actually happen?

Highly probable.

Did the biblical flood happen less than 6,000 years ago?

Highly unlikely.

This does not mean that the bible event is wrong, it may simply be misplaced in our limited understanding of our current timeline because we do not understand that the word "Generations" in the bible also means "cycles" (of at least 6,000 years per cycle and in Vedic references, these can be 4,320,000 of "solar" years or (12,000 divine years).

However, what you believe is what you believe - and so long as you have looked for the truth in alternate sources, then just be happy with your beliefs.

Interglacial Ice Age Flood

First a quick history lesson.

Imagine that you lived approx 12,000 years ago at the end of the last LGM () and where you lived (like today) was mainly along the coastline for food and transport and cooler air.

Now imagine that your parents and grandparents told you stories of a time - long ago - when people used to live thousands of meters (yards) further out on the continental shelf but the ocean had encroached on their old hunting grounds.

How could this happen you may ask.

Fresh water.

Two massive prehistoric "Glacial ice lakes" in North America were Glacial Lake Agassiz, the largest ever, and Glacial Lake Algonquin, which connected the upper Great Lakes, both formed by melting glaciers during the last Ice Age and covering vast areas of the continent before draining, leaving behind today's familiar lakes and landscapes.

Plus, Glacial Lake Missoula was a colossal prehistoric lake in western North America, formed during the last Ice Age when a giant ice dam blocked the Clark Fork River in Idaho.

This immense lake Missoula held more water than the Great Lakes combined, repeatedly filled and catastrophically drained, unleashing massive floods (the Missoula Floods) that carved dramatic alien looking landscapes across Montana, Idaho, Washington, and Oregon, creating features like the Channeled Scablands and Willamette Valley.

Plus other glacial lakes like Glacial Lake Cape Cod, Glacial Lake Narragansett (Rhode Island), and Glacial Lake Connecticut (Long Island Sound), Glacial Lake Winooski (Vermont) and Glacial Lake Hitchcock (Connecticut River Valley).

Fresh Water Effect ↟↟

I know that most of you may have never heard of the oceans Thermohaline currents but they carry warm and cold current and they are responsible for a massive amount of life in the oceans.

One of the main driving forces of the Thermohaline is salinity - so when these Glacial Lakes melted around 11,000 - 8,000 ± years ago the oceans rose up from where they were 12,000 years ago to where they are today. In some cases, this was a very sudden event - like the Mediterranean and the "Black sea".

How much did they rise you ask?

Depending on who you read, but around 130 meters or 400 feet.

The Younger Dryas was a cold snap that lasted for roughly 1,200 to 1,300 years, starting around 12,900 years ago and ending abruptly about 11,700 years ago, interrupting the warming trend that ended the last Ice Age and bringing near-glacial conditions back to the Northern Hemisphere.

Despite that cold "snap", the oceans continued to rise and according to some research I have read, the ocean was approx 2 meters (6 feet) higher 6,000 years ago than it is today.

Around 6,000 years ago, Earth experienced the peak of the Mid-Holocene Warm Period, a natural warm spell where temperatures were slightly warmer than today and this may come as a shock to many young people, but the world did not end in a run-away greenhouse event.

The Moon Flood

Most of you do not know this but our moon causes the current height of our planet's tides.

Without the moon, the tides would "purportedly" be only around 1/3 the current height.

Now imagine the gravitational displacement to our oceans and tides - IF our moon suddenly came into existance by being "captured" by our planet (or being "parked" here).

Consider that if the moon was captured, it would have a highly elliptical orbit to start with and depending upon the angle of approach which the moon entered the Earth orbit, would determine how monsterous the tides would be.

Now imagine people living along the coastline (as most do today) and suddenly this massive object slipped into an elliptical orbit where the "perigee" (closest point) to our planet was 10's of thousands of miles (Kms) closer than it is today.

Evem today, Darwin NT Australia has "regular" tides of 6 - 8 meters (20 - 26 feet). Now imaging this (or even higher) at your local beach.

IF and I stress IF this captured moon story actually happened within "recent" memory, then the progression from a "highly" elliptical rotation to the current semi-elliptical rotation by the moon, seems to be much faster than predicted by those who support this "capture" theory because the decline in the elliptical orbit would "supposedly" have taken up to 400,000 years - which is much longer than the "legends" tell us.

Parked Moon Theory

This "capture" theory is different from the one that suggests that the moon was literally "driven here and parked" in its current orbit.

Before you dismiss this as toooooo far fetched, please watch this. "Watch carefully" + "Science Channel" + "Short"

When you see it, then you cannot unsee it and this was over 12 years ago so it was a very long time before AI.

2 things come out of this:

1. For people to remember "no moon", it must have been longer than 100,000 years (absolute minimum).
2. IF the moon did form 4 billion years ago, what has caused it to "not have" a circular orbit by this time? And that something had to have happened at least once within the last 100,000 - 400,000 years according to Berkeley.edu astro physics dept.

Credo Mutwa.

There is a story told by Zulu shaman "Credo Mutwa" - and retold by others - about the moon being brought here by 2 (scaly skinned) brothers (Wowane and Mpanku) and this is not the only version of this story I have heard.

While most people will quickly dismiss this as pure fantasy - and it may be so - but consider these questions + the heap of information below.

1. How come it does not have a severe elliptical orbit - which it would have if it was a new entity in our skies?
2. How come it is 1/400th the size of the sun and at the same time, it is approx 400 times closer to Earth from the sun making it perfect for eclipse selfies?
3. It is the (almost) perfect "mass" and distance from Earth to stabilize the oceans and tides.
4. How would the approaching moon have affected these tides when it did approach?
5. Most importantly, did the new approaching moon "cause" massive tidal "flooding"?

Left Field Theories ↟↟

And then there are the left wing theories like.

1. Did this new approaching moon have its own oceans and atmosphere which "may have been" stripped off by the larger planet (Earth)?

+ + + + says yes, our moon did have water and an atmosphere - although they place this at billions of years ago.

According to "science" - IF this captured moon theory was even a remote possibility, then this "atmospheric moon" event would have had to have happened (at least) many millions of years ago?

Why?

Because the Moon is moving away from Earth at a consistent rate of about 3.8 centimeters (1.5 inches) per year which is a persistent, yet very gradual process.

How close would the moon have to be to have its atmosphere stripped off by the earth?

Roche Limit

Firstly, it would have to be well in excess of 11,433 Miles or 18,400 Kms which is the theoretical "Roche Limit" which would stop the moon being ripped apart by the Earth.

The Moon is currently 238,000 miles (or 384,000 km) away from Earth and if we did simple math of 6,000 years of Moon travel away from the Earth, we would get ± 228 meters or "approximately" 750 feet.

Even 1 million years ago, the moon would only have been 38 Kms or 23.6 miles further away.

So 1 Billion years ago, the Moon would have been approx 38,000 Kms or 23,610 miles further away - based on current speed.

Theoretical Maths Person Needed.

So we need someone who does Theoretical maths to calculate the mass of potential water on the "original" moon (using Mars as a benchmark) and the time and distance it would take for Earth to vacuum this atmosphere off of the moon.

And is that even possible?

If you do not ask, you do not know.

Even More Data ↟↟

The Two Alternatives theory by Cf. H. Alfven and G. Arrhenius, "Two Alternatives for the History of the Moon," Science 165 ("1969" ), 11ff.; S. F. Singer and L. W. Banderman, "Where was the Moon Formed?"

"Science 170 (1970)" , 438-439: "The moon was formed independently of the earth and later captured, presumably by a three-body interaction, and these events were followed by the dissipation of the excess energy through tidal friction in a close encounter."

More recently, a study of lunar paleotides has shown that "the Moon could not have been formed in orbit around the Earth" (A. J. Anderson, "Lunar Paleotides and the Origin of the Earth-Moon System," The Moon and the Planets, 19 [1978], 409-417). "Harvard"

Because of a certain degree of instability in the Sun-Earth-Moon system, "the planetary origin and capture of the Moon by the Earth becomes a strong dynamic possibility." (V. Szebehely and R. McKenzie, "Stability of the Sun-Earth-Moon System," The Astronomical Journal 82 ("1977" ), 303ff.

Aristotle et al ↟↟

"Aristotle" wrote that Arcadia in Greece, before being inhabited by the Hellenes (Greeks), had a population of Pelasgians, and these aborigines who occupied the land at that time - before there was a moon in the sky above the Earth - for this reason they were called Proselenes.

Democritus and Anaxagoras taught that there was a time when the Earth was without the Moon. "Hippolytus" , Refutatio Omnium Haeresium (Refutation of All Heresies) Ch IX p203.

Apollonius of Rhodes mentioned the time "when not all the orbs were yet in the heavens, before the Danai and Deukalion races came into existence, and only the Arcadians lived, of whom it is said that they dwelt on mountains and fed on acorns, before there was a moon." Argonautica IV.264. ("In Latin")

Plutarch wrote in "The Roman Questions" : "There were Arcadians of Evander’s following, the so-called pre-Lunar people." Plutarch, Moralia, transl. by F. C. Babbit, sect. 76.

Ovid: "The Arcadians are said to have possessed their land before the birth of Jove (Jupiter), and the folk is older than the Moon." Fasti, transl. by Sir J. Frazer, II. "p44" .

Lucian in his Astrology says that "The Arcadians, however, and none but they, would have naught of this and yeelded no honour unto astrologie; and in their folly they affirm that they are older than the moon." Lucian, Astrology, transl. by A. M. Harmon ("1969" ), p. 367.

"Censorinus" also alludes to the time in the past when there was no moon in the sky.###Liber de die natali 19; also scholium on Aristophanes’ Clouds.

"The fabulous traditions of this nation go back almost to the distant epocha, when the Moon did not yet accompany the Earth;" say the Indio tribesmen of Chibchas - Bogota highlands in the eastern Cordilleras of Colombia. A. von Humboldt, Vues des Cordillères (1816), English transl.: Researches Concerning the Institutions and Monuments of the Ancient Inhabitants of America, ("1814" ), vol. I, p. 107; cf. H. Fischer, In mondener Welt (1930)

CTRL+F and search for: remote period when the Moon

"and give each lunar day the name of the stars near which the Moon is placed in its pro-gressive motion from west to east." (1814) "Page 345 + 359" , Vol. I (1930), p. 345.

CTRL+F and search twice for: west to east

Biblical ↟↟

Here is another commonly referred to reference but, it lacks specificity.

"Psalm 72:5" it is said: "Thou wast feared since [the time of] the sun and before the moon, a generation of generations."

Note that Psalm 72:5 may be interpreted 2 ways.

1) Before the moon came?

2) Before - as in "In front of" the moon?

You decide.

*** Note that some people claim that the "moon" refers to the biblical sentence and the lesser luminary to rule the night "Genesis 1:16" - but if we look at this carefullt (and not vaguely), we see that "The Moon" does NOT always appear at night so in this instance, the "rule the night" sentence "must be" referring to something else.

In fact, it is just as likely to "appear" during the day.

"We" just assume that it means the Night.

Another bad translation.

There is another verse often quoted but I can assure you that this is just a bad translation.

"Job 25:5" the grandeur of the Lord who "Makes peace in the heights" is praised and the time is mentioned "before [there was] a moon and it did not shine".

Here is what it actually says.

Behold, He removes the moon and it will not shine, and the stars are not pure in His eyes.

הֵ֣ן עַד־יָ֖רֵחַ וְלֹ֣א יַֽאֲהִ֑יל וְ֜כֽוֹכָבִ֗ים לֹֽא־זַכּ֥וּ בְעֵינָֽיו

SUMMARY ↟↟

I am not saying that the "captured moon" or the "drive and park moon" theories are true, only that they are worth looking at despite the small amount of evidence because sometimes you "may see" something others missed.

This way you can make "more" informed decisions about the things you believe or disregard.

Further Reading ??? ↟↟

If you made it this far, congratulations :)

My Top List of "What The Heck" Books.

You may also be interested in Immanuel Velikovsky's book called "Worlds In Collision" where he discusses even wierder ideas - definately worth the read if you like your brain cells expanded.

Here is the top list of "what the heck" books to get you started into a much bigger world than you know.